Atheon Controversy

Published on: Oct 18, 2014 @ 18:32

In Bungie’s latest weekly update, they outlined a few changes coming to Destiny.

Most of the weapon changes they mentioned have been well received, especially the PvE buff for the Vex Mythoclast, since many people were disappointed when it got such a significant PvE nerf. Bungie stated that the Mythoclast will be “a weapon [people] can continue to rely on in the next Raid, Crota’s End.”

What hasn’t been well received is the change to the Atheon encounter in the Vault of Glass.

According to the update:

Next week’s Hotfix is going to contain some fixes to the Atheon encounter.

  • We’ve added “baby bumpers” to areas where players could knock Atheon out of the environment.
  • Knocking a boss off a ledge is a bug. We will seek to address bugs like these as quickly as possible.

The encounter goal for Atheon is to act as a climax and the culmination of learning for a given Raid group. Part of that is making sure that each player in your group can perform every job as required. A change will take effect next week which fixes a bug with Atheon’s target selection. When using its Timestream ability, Atheon will select 3 players at random, instead of choosing the three players furthest from it.

atheon teleport

Random?

The decision to change the way the Timestream ability works is causing people to question Bungie’s motives about the entire encounter.

If you haven’t attempted or completed the Vault of Glass raid yet, Timestream is an ability Atheon uses in the fight where 3 people will get teleported, and as of now it’s your team who chooses which people he teleports. This change causes players to know “every job as required.” Will this cause more frustration? Probably. Will the change cause the encounter to be even harder? For a lot of people, definitely. But is this “bug” fix really necessary?

It seems people are missing the keyword: bug. Atheon randomly teleporting people is how the encounter was originally supposed to be.

Though it’s unfortunate that the encounter does not currently (pre-hotfix) work correctly, it’s doubtful that people would be in an uproar about the random Timestream ability if they had fought Atheon using it since the beginning.

DattoDoesDestiny weighs in on the subject by saying,

This change makes it more random, yes, but it breaks up the monotony and I’m looking forward to it. It will make you better at the raid. It’s good practice for dealing with chaos.

aetheon vault of glass raid

Will this improve the encounter?

The fact that people were able to defeat Atheon in unintended ways and with unintended mechanics is disappointing, and of course Bungie is at fault for this.

Is this change really needed now that so many people have gotten used to the unintended strategy? There’s probably a better way that Bungie could complicate this encounter, or have people “preform every job as required.”

There were hundreds of people who supported the thoughts of Reddit user JarredMack

This is a horrible design decision for the game. The purpose of organizing a team to do content is that you can assign people to particular roles and make sure you cover everyone’s strengths appropriately. Not only does this “fix” make the encounter much more frustrating for groups to complete, but it creates situations where you simply can’t afford to raid with people that can’t do 100% of the encounter – this is incredibly alienating for new raiders and pickup groups alike.

Perhaps it would be better to only have people who play on Hard mode randomly teleported via Timestream? Or is it going to tarnish the experience regardless?

Are you happy with this significant change, disappointed, or indifferent? Let us know what you think about these upcoming the upcoming hotfix in the comments below.

atheon teleport timestream

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  • Michael Loomis

    All these fixes that Bungie is doing are bullshit!
    – Our loot system is broken, so lets lower the loot drop and get rid of an exploitable cave that people had to farm cuz of our shitty loot system.
    – Oh no! People found a way to exploit a raid boss! People have been doing it for years in WoW, how is this new?
    – Vex Mythoclast is OP, nerf it! Um… You only get it by doing the raid on HARD! And it is HARD… Lets just make people prized trophies worthless…
    – Cryptarch is colorblind… ok thats the only good fix…
    Point is Bungie sold us an unfinished game with no story, bad dialogue, a shitty RNG loot system that contradicts the whole “You earn your loot” thing they had going and a HUGE focus on PvP, and not everyone likes it. I for one am a PvE guy, so where is my love? How do we know? DLC #1 has 3 story missions… 3! Fucking 3! But lets add 5 PvP maps!
    I spent 200$ on a freaking Ghost edition of this game because it was promised to be the next biggest thing since Halo, and all we got was a Rehashed version of ODST with less story and a RNG…

    • Wisdom Thumbs

      The Mythoclast needed to be nerfed in PVP (they just decided to be lazy and nerfed it in PVE too, which was unwarranted). Other than that, I completely agree with you.

      • JC Theunpleasant

        Yes VMC needed a PvP nerf. But the point I think Michael was making that given the very low population of people with it other fixes are more important.

        • DarthDiggler

          given the very low population of people with it other fixes are more important.

          HUH?

      • DarthDiggler

        @wisdomthumbs:disqus

        Mythoclast is going to get a PVE buff. It was way OP in PVP.

        • Wisdom Thumbs

          Yep

    • Raxs

      -The loot system needs refining. They did the right thing by patching loot caves. It was so depressing watching players stand there and farm it. What is the point of exploiting a game to get gear just so you can loot a cave to get more gear faster. Getting the good stuff is half the fun, you will never get to experience the achievement of gaining it by working hard if you just sit at the entrance of a cave for hours.
      – Same applies here for the Raid boss. Bungie want people to have to work hard in this world. They want it to be stable, they want every piece of exotic and legendary gear to whisper “I earned this”. The RNG loot system in Strikes and Multiplayer is the next stop, I agree. This needs to go.
      -I agree about the Mythoclast. Bungie didn’t want to nerf it but people complained about it so much they had no choice. It’s still better than.. well… pretty much every primary, but still I never had a problem being gunned down by it.
      -I loved the story. I found it had as many cutscenes as many other tippleA FPS game, the mission themselves weren’t quite as unique, but the fact that there are so many and the fact there will be so many more makes up for it to me. The story in destiny is scattered across all modes, Strikes, Story, Raid. It’s everywhere. People just haven’t yet learned how to find it. When you start another character and pay attention to all of the details, you realize there is a lot to this world, and they line up so, so many stories it’s crazy! I can’t wait to hear from the lost Fallen Factions, The Hive god (“…or leader, or king”), the Awoken world, the garden world of Mercury (That became a machine), all of the other planets in the system, there is a lot to expect (: It’s sad to hear you didn’t get what you wanted, but I consider destiny a game you have to give your love to to get it back, people expect destiny the do all the thinking for you, but it is you that has to assemble the stories and find out what lies in the deepest parts of world.

      • Scott Z

        i played the shit out of this game in PVP, PVE and solo and I have NO IDEA AT ALL why the Cabal are at war. Why an archoin preist is a big deal, why the Vex are bullies, etc. I, as the player, shouldn’t have to invest mytime also playing “were’s Waldo” to get common story line. If you went to see the new avengers and they said most of the answers to your questions can be answered if you find certain version of comics and don’t tell you were to find them or how to find them, would you still like the movie. If you didn’t know HOW Bruce Banner became the hulk, would you still care?

        • chris

          lol “weres waldo” never heard of that game…

        • DarthDiggler

          @scott_zupek:disqus

          If you had to choose between gameplay and story, gameplay wins all the time. Bungie did the right thing by making sure the gameplay works smoothly, they can always fill in the holes of the plot via updates. A little Mystery makes things far more interesting, unfortunately I am not sure if the gaming public has any appetite for suspense.

        • Raxs

          That is because you haven’t paid as much attention to the story as you could of. The archon priest was was the high leader of the Fallen house “The House of Wolves”, the Kell of the wolves were destroyed by the Queens forces and the Awoken Queen took the place of these Kell and took command of the “House of Wolves” (Which is why she owns fallen guards) The Archon Priest was imprisoned. Not long after that another Fall house stole the priest and were looking free him from the chamber. This priest would be grip at humanities throat as it commands the giant winter house onto humanity, killing this archon would prevent the fall of humanity.

          The Vex are simply hunting down the Traveler, they are an ancient enemy and these details are still to explored, they followed the Traveller to earth in attempt to destroy it. This would mean the end of humanity as well. (This was literally the main storyline)

          I found there was much, much more to Destiny’s storyline than any other FPS game. People just don’t pay any attention to it at all. Yeah, sure the actual gameplay in some of the missions is a little bit stale, but the story is everything else, that the main thing I enjoy.

          Just as well, these stories has sept into multiplayer too. The battle of twilight gap was where every fallen house united against humanity and brought it to it’s very knees, a massive part of destiny’s origins.

          The difference between this and avengers is that every part of Destiny’s story is already in the game (thankfully).

          • Jason David Anderson

            Erm, where is any of this outside of the Grimoire cards?

            Seriously – they need to at least put the cards IN the game so I can browse through them in an appendix.

            It is beyond lazy and half assed to force some one over to your website in order to learn the full story.

            Ex Bungie employee’s have already said that the story was butchered about a year before release because Activision would not allow Bungie to extend their deadline (they’re notoriously strict) – whereas Microsoft would always give them the time they needed. Which is why all of those people quit – their vision wasn’t going to come to fruition.

            It’s a shame and both party’s are to blame, Activision for not letting Bungie flesh the game out completely and Bungie for not making their deadline after they signed a 500 million dollar contract.

          • Raxs

            Everything I mentioned was outside the Grimoire cards. You can learn all of that from the game. Truth is, I only check grimmoire last night, it is great, but I agree really, really needs to be in the game.

            It’s also not lazy. Bungie’s website is the main hub for all of the extras. They did it for Marathon, Halo and Destiny. Truth is, most players do not give a damn about the extras. They just didn’t want to clutter up the game’s interface for those who don’t care. But more people are taking an interest in grimmoire. (Which is why bungie said they will now add it to the game).

            A thing people need to know is that Publishers do not care about games. They care about money. Publishers basically go along the guidelines “If you can prove to us this will make money we will pay to have the world see it.” If Bungie does anything that will make the Publisher loose money the publisher will rout against it, which is exactly what has happened here. Microsoft would have done exactly the same thing. But Halo is a different kind of game. It is a set one time campaign, multiplayer and an additional lobby, players wouldn’t buy the game in the first place if it only had the first two missions of the campaign, with destiny it’s different, we only have a tenth of the campaign now and it’s still gone a pretty long way. Destiny is mostly about the story and basically is what all of the content will revolve around. Which is why Activision wants to stretch it out a bit more. Sure, I’ll admit the game would be better with the removed features still intact, but I know the publisher are only doing their jobs. Sure this stuff seems like they are being “Evil” and only care about the money, but at the end of they day they are a business, with wages to pay people and services to provide.

            On the brighter side, I think waiting for this material will make me appreciate it more when it comes out. They are still working on this game for 10 years. This content hasn’t been removed, just moved back a bit.

          • Jason David Anderson

            I am lost as to how you got any of this out of the game itself, lol, I did not see any of that information – if it is there, it’s not obvious it’s available, shame on Bungie for that. I really wanted a deeper story from them on this game.

          • Raxs

            I just listened to all the things the characters said. That’s about it. Trust me. Replay the campaign with a new character and you’ll notice when they mention the stuff I talked about. They are always telling you parts of the story. Not really shame on Bungie. People just need to know this is not a typical FPS. You don’t smash though gameplay and get a summary in a cutscene at the end of every mission. You get fed everything as you play. You are apart of the story. The actual gameplay and story is integrated rather than separated (: This is why most people miss it. They don’t listen because they are distracted by the fights and such. Which is normal because Destiny represents a pretty unusual concept.

          • Jason David Anderson

            I’ve listened to everything that’s stated – unless you mean standing next to NPC’s and listening to what they say randomly, in that case I’v eonly listened to Xur and The Speaker (interesting to hear The Speaker talk about The Nine helping in the future).

            I really did not get any of this out of the story – period – the only “character” that really talks throughout the entire campaign is Dinklebot. I have no idea how you got all this information about the House of Wolves, the Fallen moving to the Queen, etc. – it’s INSINUATED through visual queue’s, but nothing is ever stated as fact, it’s all just speculation on the player’s part if you don’t read the grimoire cards.

          • Raxs

            Okay, I’ll insight you on where this information came from. You obviously learn that the queen has taken control of fallen guard in the main story, during the strike in the briefing the Ghost mentions most of the info, how the queen locked up the Archon after taking control of the House, and then how the House of Winter Captured the Archon by stealing it from the reef. The rest of the information on why the fallen have captured the priest and what impact it will make on humanity is mentioned in the Gameplay and the final debriefing. Just keep an ear out and you’ll find out a lot of stuff. That stuff is not speculation. The only speculation I mentioned was that the house the queen now possesses is the “House of Wolves” and that the queen had the Kell killed (Which to be honest is just self explained). So really all of the Info is there without needed to speculate anything. You just need to listen when the game is telling you details (:

          • Jason David Anderson

            The two things you speculated on were the biggest surprises I had reading over your initial information – the rest was stuff I already knew. 😉

          • Raxs

            Which where? If you mean the last two things: The only way to take control of a fallen house is to Kill the Kell anyway, which is why it was mostly self explained. I wouldn’t have thought the name of house was important. I though how to Main campaign tied in with the Strike was the best part of the tangent (:

    • DarthDiggler

      @michaelloomis:disqus

      All these fixes that Bungie is doing are bullshit!

      Boo hoo hoo, cry me a river and feel free to read the Destiny Terms and Conditions which outline that the developers have the right to make adjustments to the multi-million dollar game they released.

      Our loot system is broken, so lets lower the loot drop and get rid of an
      exploitable cave that people had to farm cuz of our shitty loot system.

      Would you rather Fallen, Hive, Cabal and Vex come to the tower, surrender and HAND you the best loot in the game with a plate of fresh cookies?

      The loot system wasn’t broken they just had too high of a drop rate on the mobs/adds. Any developer who is actively supporting a title would be concerned about something like a Loot Cave. The players making the biggest issue of this are generally the over entitled types. You aren’t entitled to gear and loot, you are supposed to earn it via running content, not sitting in front of a cave killing endless mobs.

      Oh no! People found a way to exploit a raid boss! People have been doing it for years in WoW, how is this new?

      Yes people have found a way to exploit a Raid Boss, and I am sure Bungie was expecting these things. They didn’t want the hardest content in the game to be exploited with mechanics that were never designed for the Raid. IMHO it would be a good idea for them to consider bringing back the mechanic in another form where it is properly balanced. I used to play a lot of DCUO and guess what, people exploited Raid Bosses there too, and those issues always got patched quickly. I highly doubt WoW was any different, Bungie never claimed this was anything new and exploiting boss fights have been happening ever since there were boss fights, which I think were introduced on the NES (8-bit).

      Vex Mythoclast is OP, nerf it! Um… You only get it by doing the raid on HARD! And it is HARD… Lets just make people prized trophies
      worthless…

      Mythoclast and Suros Regime are used far too much in PVP and Bungie should address that. Mythoclast is 1 shot kill and no recharge time. That doesn’t balance with the rest of the guns unless you include the heavy guns but they have a heavy reload time. Mythoclast shouldn’t be always used if it is in someones possession, the fact that it is showcases just how OP it is in PVP.

      Most games with any gun you use if you stand in front of someone and simultaneously shoot the other person you will die at the same time. Otherwise you have an inbalance and the person that can kill first has a distinct advantage.

      Point is Bungie sold us an unfinished game with no story, bad dialogue, a shitty RNG loot system that contradicts the whole “You earn your loot” thing they had going and a HUGE focus on PvP, and not everyone likes it.

      You have options, head over to GameStop sell the game and at least we here on the internet can stop reading your nonsense about the game. I for one am just sick of gamers constant bitching at developers as if their job isn’t hard enough they have to deal with some ass hat that didn’t learn proper manners and consideration for others from their parents. At the end of the day it’s just a game and your life will go on with or without Destiny. If Destiny really causes this level of anger from you, you should seek other less emotionally taxing hobbies.

      The game is complete, the gameplay mechanisms mostly work just fine, these updates are fine tuning things to make sure some players don’t have an immediate upper hand over other players.

      It was no big secret that Bungie was the maker of Halo, and Halo had a huge multiplayer component. Anyone with the intelligence of a house plant could have put 2 and 2 together and derived that PVP would play a big role in Destiny. If you were so intellectually inclined you could have read up on the game prior to release, and checked out the BETA where it would have been pretty obvious that Bungie wasn’t going to do away with their Multiplayer Ambitions.

      I for one am a PvE guy, so where is my love?

      You realize that Bungie is a multi-million dollar operation right? It’s not your great Aunt who is going to make you some customized Pajamas. Bungie makes the game for millions to consume they aren’t looking to customize the experience for 1 guy because his vagina is sore because he got “pink-socked” in PVP.

      As I stated above, Bungie wasn’t keeping this game some big secret, if you don’t like what the game is you only have the guy in the mirror to blame really.

      How do we know? DLC #1 has 3 story missions… 3! Fucking 3! But lets add 5 PvP maps!

      Sounds about right considering the game released with WAY more PVE content than PVP. It’s their first update and it won’t be their last. PVE content takes more time to balance out, mainly because of stuff like pushing bosses out of the combat area. You never have to worry about that in PVP.

      You are only showcasing your complete ignorance to game design here. Feel free to remove your foot from your mouth at any time!

      I spent 200$ on a freaking Ghost edition of this game because it was promised to be the next biggest thing since Halo, and all we got was a Rehashed version of ODST with less story and a RNG…

      Who would spend $200 on anything and not be 100% sure about what you are buying? So far the game has sold like hotcakes so in a way it is the next biggest thing since Halo. Given Halo was only on Xbox, I am sure Destiny has far exceeded the Halo level of sales.

      I would suggest next time you do your homework about a game and not make rash assumptions about what the game is or what you want it to be.

      • Jason David Anderson

        You need to learn how to be respectful when you talk to people – instead of sticking your head halfway up Bungie’s rear end and being a smart ass.

        Nobody is going to take you seriously when you tell them they have a sore vagina, or start out with “cry me a river” like you’re their dad, you’re not – and some of us are probably old enough to be yours from the tone of your writing.

      • Scott Zupek

        My only quip about this is the game was advertised ad a complete story with a mutli faceted universe with endless possibilities. Certainly this NOT EVEN CLOSE to what they put out. If you bought a 200 dollar pair of jeans that didn’t fit when u got home even though the did in the store and there was absolutely no refund of any kind you’d be pissed…I would think anyways.

        I’m not sayingu don’t make good points… I agree with most of what you said/ typed but we still have the problem that they sold a product that was depicted as something else.

        That’s on bungie and Activision. NOBODY else

  • Yaters

    I don’t at all agree this is a bug. There is specific code implemented that has to measure the distance of players from Atheon and then choose them to be teleported. There is no way that piece of code used the wrong mechanic and was intended to just randomly take 3 people. It was a design choice and one they are changing. I could see it as a bug if the intent was to take the 3 players farthest and that wasn’t working correctly, but not the other way around.
    As for my personal feelings about this, I don’t like the change. It’s going to require everyone on the team to be able to use the relic efficiently (in truth you could get away with 4 people). But it’s more the spirit of the change that rubs me wrong. I don’t think it’s about making it easy or not – the first time through the raid wasn’t easy at all. It was a process to figure out the mechanics of the encounter and then find people that could execute those jobs. I liked that the raid required a group of people to figure out who is strong at what skill. I liked that we had to try various combinations to find the right groups. I’m a big sports fan and coached at various levels in my life. I equate this to making a rule in football where you can’t have position players but each play randomly chosen guys at Quarterback, Line, Receiver, etc on each play. That’s just silly.
    It’s just odd to me that with all the things they could work on to fix or polish this game, they chose something that wasn’t really broken and then changed it. I honestly think the lack of intriguing end game content at higher levels is why they are trying to slow people from reaching 30. Because once you reach it, there isn’t much to do with the exception of their very underwhelming PvP mode.

    • Kad

      In all honesty, we’ve received a lackluster game and the next two DLC’s (or at least the next one) should be completely free. Since, like you said, there is a lack of intriguing end game content.

      • Yaters

        Unfortunately, I don’t think that will ever happen. There are already revenue forecasts and a business model to follow on this. Ultimately, these studios and production companies are in it for money. There is a balance to pleasing your customers so they will spend more in the long run and executing on top-line revenue. They sold the DLC pass up front so it would be a lot of work to refund people on that (me for one, I bought it without a second thought.)
        They did a lot of talking about the numbers of people playing the moon during the beta, so they have the monitoring tools in place to understand the impact of these decisions. If people stop playing it will hurt.
        Personally I want them to succeed. I want this game to be great. It’s just not there now and for me, they have one more chance with how they execute on the DLC. I’m nervous about that though…doesn’t seem like they are ‘getting’ it.

    • Wisdom Thumbs

      Well said.

      A much more fleshed out and dynamic Patrol system might have saved this game. As is, it’s looking like the bulk of the community won’t even make it to the second DLC. Half of my friends have already quit, and the other half hardly play at all.

  • holla yo

    All i will say is BULLSHIT thank heaven new games are coming out soon Bungie can shove this shit up there ass!

  • Matt Dunnigan

    great now i have to scratch off the quick way to kill athion fastest on my to do list witch is now making wanna play the vault of glass less. 🙁

  • Jason David Anderson

    This change is garbage, and Bungie is alienating their core user base – the hardcore people who are already pushing through end game content.

    I will not spend 5-6 hours learning Atheon again, and if Bungie goes through with this “fix” I will quit playing Destiny. To put that into perspective, I put almost 12 hours a day into Destiny since release to current time.

    There are too many good games coming out where developers care about my input that cannot be ignored, if Bungie isn’t going to show they do.

    Why are they not fixing bugs that have existed from day one? The invisible Oracle that marks your entire team and wipes it before it appears – the gates porting you into permanent slipstream graphics, or sending you to the same side you entered on – Atheon’s splash damage going through Titan shields and killing people on the opposite side while leaving others perfectly fine and alive.

    There are countless bugs that need to be addressed.

    If Bungie’s raid team, Q+A team, and development team didn’t catch this during testing – they should NOT be changing it this late into release. You release a raid, you fix things that are game breaking, and you move on.

    Work on making the next raid bug free, and as intended from day one – instead of all of this crap that adds artificial difficulty to the raid.

    If Hobgoblins can go on a sniper ledge, why can’t we? Isn’t this supposed to be an open world game? If I can get there because a designer put small ledges on walls for me to jump off of – then I should be able to use that area to kill something. Period. Not have invisible “turn back” messages pop up at random.

    What happens when 2 or 3 people from one pillar are teleported and the person left behind dies because of it? Are you telling me that each pillars difficulty and spawn rate is designed to be defended by one player? Bull. With the no revive addition in Hard Mode – it’s going to be based purely on dumb luck whether you succeed or fail in downing Atheon.

    What about the horrible RNG aspects of the game? I’ve beat Atheon legitimately on hard mode twice, and I’ve gotten FOUR HELMETS in those two downs. That’s ridiculous.

    Bungie need to clean their act up, give bosses appropriate loot tables like other raids do – and not add artificial difficulty to a raid AFTER it’s been public for weeks. Period.

    Would people care if this is how it was from day one? Probably not as much, as some one who’s been raiding for years I can tell you I’d complain about the randomness of it, because it’s flat out not what raiding is supposed to be about – but the fact that I’ve already put the countless hours into the raid to learn the fights and get a clear in a timespan that doesn’t require I set aside an entire day means I should not have to go back and do it again just because YOU screwed up.

    Get your stuff together, you’re destroying your own userbase – if this is how things are done from here on out, Destiny will be an afterthought a year from now and Bungie will be wondering if they should scrap it and move onto a new game.

  • Jason David Anderson

    “It seems people are missing the keyword: bug. Atheon randomly teleporting people is how the encounter was originally supposed to be.”

    – that’s blind fanboy bullshit and you know it.

    You don’t just randomly miss that Atheon ports the 3 people furthest away during testing – the only reason Atheon was downed is because this was figured out.

    It is deliberate code put into the game.

    Start acting like you’re some one who loves the game and not the company – if you want this page to survive, the game has to survive, and with Bungie ignoring the important aspects to implement fixes that feed their own ego the game will not survive. Period.

    • I’m not going to accuse Bungie of lying or deliberately trying to deceive people, because I personally don’t feel that is what they’re doing. This article served as an overview of the change and a commentary from both sides.

      I’m trying to be unbiased about it as much as possible. I did say though that, “There’s probably a better way that Bungie could complicate this encounter.”

      • Sigmund

        Bungie is blatantly lying! and they are deliberately trying to deceive you, look at the story that was taken out, how do we know the Queens brother is named Crow and was the leader of “the Stranger” a male exo from before they axed more than half their story and why did they re-purpose cut-scenes? to sell you a incomplete game! I for one am thinking lawsuit!

        I was so hyped for this game, and Atheon, which is a hard fight , already will take four people, not take the shield bearer at times, not take but two people, so yeah if they meant it to be three randomly that should already be in the code, to take 3 every-time, this is a decision, not a bug, the one bug they have yet to fix is the fact that people are left behind on the countdown after beating him for extra rewards upon return to orbit, they said they had plans to fix this at a later date, but instead focus on just one aspect not the overall raid.

        some games work better with bugs, look at halo 2 at least microsoft is leaving in the bugs for the master chief collection, because people got used to bugs and liked them they were a happy accident and bungie knew about this when they made the game then, and didn’t patch these things because they listened to us. But so far Bungie is not listening to us. From various petitions, to even their own page post about this from the update, one in 85 posts was ok with the change those odds are not good, tell me who they listen to.

        also Datto got one sponsorship from Bungie, and now hes their paid spokesperson, in a way because they made his career, you even posted a video him and of how he was going to loose his apartment and more and now ever since “Bungie” posted him on their site, he now can work full time, so they bought him in a sense, hes forever in their debt. so biased opinion much?

        This game is inherently broken from day one, and they knew it… so how can you tell us they are not lying.

  • Jason David Anderson

    One last comment:

    Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-08-21-bungie-on-the-destiny-level-cap-raids-and-game-size

    “It’s about the group dynamic. It’s not just about a casual dynamic. It’s about an understanding of people committed to playing the roles in raids. And preparing. With raids, you don’t just jump into them. You’ve got to prepare before you go in, and decide, what are you doing? What am I doing? Let’s all talk about it in orbit. Okay, what role are you going to play? Well, I’m an x Titan, whatever type of Titan I am, and I’m going to be defensive and hold positions. And, have you played this before? Yeah, I found success when I did it this way.”

    From Jonty Barnes – Bungie’s director of Production in Destiny – one month prior to release.

    Mad that your raid got beat on day one? Mad that people have blown through your inadequate content before you can push out the expansion? Great, work on making intelligent, challenging content in the future instead of patching things that weren’t broken to begin with.

    • Yaters

      Thank you – I was searching for where that comment came from before launch. I remembered reading/watching it but couldn’t place who had said it.
      And what Jonty said made sense to me. It’s what myself and my team tried to do when we entered the raid – figure out what was going on and then figure out who could do each area best. To go back now and say that’s not the intent is just weak.
      Sure, the new mechanic of the final boss adds a layer of complexity and challenge. But to say it was a bug is just not honest. I posted below – there is no way that’s a bug. No way that code was in error. It was a conscious design decision they are going back on. I think that’s what frustrates me more than anything, they are being intellectually dishonest about some of these things.

      I’d rather they just enabled a new version of the raid where all the mechanics were changed up and you had to re-learn them. I’d actually find that interesting. You could do Normal, Hard, and a new version. (Of course, if they did that WITHOUT adding some fixes to how the rewards are given there’d still be an outcry.) Or they could add a version that randomized some of the encounters…making it really challenging. They could add that with a guarantee of at least one armor or weapon reward and it would feel like progress. More content (kinda), a fix to the reward system, we are listening, etc.

      • Jason David Anderson

        I like the idea of a third raid mode that is incredibly different – perhaps have a guaranteed exotic for beating Atheon or something along those lines.

        The RNG problems in this game are a separate issue from Bungie claiming something is a bug – when there are real bugs in the game.

    • DarthDiggler

      @jasondavidanderson:disqus

      Read my response to Michael Loomis. The point of the game is to provide a challenge, if people find strategies that break the game mechanics, expect a patch and be a big boy about it and don’t whine so much. Your sore vagina will heal I promise.

      • Jason David Anderson

        Really? Sore vagina? Do you trash talk all strangers you meet or are you just a huge tough guy when you don’t have to answer for your tough guy routine?

        I’ll take you seriously as soon as you stop playing Mr. Bad Ass on the internet, nerd.

  • Larry Facer

    The first time I went thru the raid, there were 3 guys who did the time stream event every time, if someone other than those 3 went in they told everyone to wipe. That frustrates me more than us wiping cuz a new guy goes in and fails

  • Kad

    The change to Atheon’s time stream ability should literally have no consequence to how you beat the Raid. All of the times that I’ve beaten the raid it NEVER mattered who went in the time stream since everyone knew what they were doing. I understand that there are new players that won’t be able to get the hang of it until after maybe 10-20 deaths, but that’s what a Raid is. First team that beat the raid died what… 1200 times total? It might as well have been random for them.
    As for Mythoclast, they really shouldn’t have nerfed it since it’s a reward for beating it on HARD, but that’s how it goes. The people on the receiving end wouldn’t stop bitching about it being too powerful and now the people who have the gun won’t stop bitching about it being nerfed (which it shouldn’t be).
    Everything else needs to be fixed though. Except the loot table, it seems like literally no one has played an MMO before and thinks that everything should be spoon fed to them.

    • Jason David Anderson

      So when 2 people get ported from one pillar – leaving one to defend it and die, what do you plan on doing about it?

      This change is essentially forcing people to run normal until they gear up to level 30 before attempting hard mode.

    • Wisdom Thumbs

      The Mythoclast should not have been nerfed in PVE. It DID however need to be nerfed in PVP.

    • Alan A. Franklin

      The problem is that Bungie says it’s not an MMO. They always say that. Plus it’s a console game which means there are not a lot of people who have played an MMOs. No one wants everything spoon fed, but people want progress and the Raid has given me zero progress and I’ve beaten it over 12 times. Makes me lose interest.

  • Tahir Zafar

    Its just so obvious what this is. Its offensive they are doing it this way. They are stretching out the end game content as everyone beat it and there is nothing to do. the worst part is , you will do this even harder raid now and get NOTHING in return. (chatterwhite or ships doesnt count).

    at least draw up some loot tables with decent items in it. create some more items so people have unique builds . at this rate the whole game world will be wearing the same 4 items (3 and exotic tbf). Where is the originality? where are set items? set bonuses? items that push a build a certain way? Legedary affixes that are actually legendary.

    I dont think people would complain if there was say , 4 different raid sets per class, all possible from the raid. Each giving different bonuses for equipping all 4 items. At least then you have a chance to get something that leads to something.

    So much potential, i love the game, but its just got nothing going for it. Even the DLC, looks like the same old. everyone rush to get your raid gear to get you to 32. again everyone will have the same gear once the terrible loot system gives you it.

    I want this game to be good and i am getting a horrible feeling its going to be one of the greatest flops ever. Give us some variety! I dont even mind grinding the same old strikes but give me something to look forward to! I did the same bosses in diablo 2 and the same dungeons in diablo 3 day after day and loved it. Same for wow raids. Why? itemisation. there was always that “what if i get it today?”. That doesnt exist in destiny and it is the biggest downfall of all.

  • It’s fine. It needed a buff. Atheon was fairly easy. The only people have have an issue with it are people that use exploits as a crutch.

    • Jason David Anderson

      Atheon is arguably the hardest fight in the raid – only on par with the Gatekeepers before him. If you think it’s easy – you aren’t doing it on hard mode, or all of your team mates are level 30 decked out in top tier gear.

  • Mykle D Clark

    I disagree with their decision to change the time stream selection mechanic. If that was a bug, how did they not notice it? They claim to have played this game long before we got to but seem to keep finding that it is not what they intended.

    Anyhow… I agree with the sentiment that this disturbs the role based play of the raid. It makes the raid manageable to newer players and mixed teams to be able to pick roles. It does go along with their philosophy of the raid being hard and only done by the good teams.

    I still think Bungie has changed to a company that is okay with disappointing their fan base. This is just another tick on a scoreboard of them becoming more like the game juggernauts we despise.

  • Krysl3r

    Timestream is buggy, most of you probably had it happen when either random people were ported or only 2 were. They’re changing it to fix a problem with the mechanic.
    Although finding ways to beat bosses is cool, knocking a boss off the edge (and that includes both in vog) is not how the fight is meant to be. Why people cant understand that and believe that all groups should be able to bypass the fight mechanics and get gear in a non-challenging way is beyond me. Raiding should be hard, not beaten by exploits but of strategy, determination and lots of deaths!
    Same with people wining about the loot cave and mytho – they ended up being something bungie didn’t want. I sure as hell didn’t want stand in front of a cave for hours on end just to keep up with gear averages.
    It sure as hell ain’t perfect, but it’s the best mmo for a long time.

    • Wisdom Thumbs

      Most people are fine with not being able to knock Atheon off the ledge anymore. It’s the Timestream “fix” that has the community in an uproar.

    • Jason David Anderson

      I haven’t seen a single person complain about Atheon being knocked off the ledge being fixed – everyone knows it’s an exploit and should be fixed.

      If they’re fixing it because time stream is buggy, they need to say that. You saying that it’s why they’re doing it doesn’t confirm it – you’re making things up to be apologetic for Bungie. Stop.

      As far as the loot cave, Bungie said people would be able to do what they want in this game, everyone could “become legend” in their own unique way – and they also said “If you can see it, you can go there”. Both were bullshit. Period. If some one wants to shoot into a cave 5 hours a day instead of play the content who the hell cares? They bought the game, it’s not breaking mechanics, it’s just something to do for people who enjoy grinding to an extreme.

      Just because YOU didn’t want to do it doesn’t mean it SHOULDN’T be in a game.

      • Jonah House

        I totally agree they said its not wrong if gou play the game but ig its wrong when u find a loot cave or glitch right?

  • Dre

    Truth is.. Games have been dumbed down. It’s nice to see a challenge; where people have to work for the completion of the raid. However, the loot system should be updated for better rewards for the harder task.

  • zfr0016

    CHANGE THE LOOT SYSTEM! We are getting crap for working really hard and long! I receive hardly any legendary engrams from this game no matter what I do! AND HEAVEN FORBID I GET ONE!!! IT IS NOT FOR MY CLASS!!! This is the REAL BUG that needs to be fixed, your crappy loot system. -_-

  • Dalton Harris

    The random teleport idea…..is bad. so much of this game is based on luck. all players have done is that they figured out a good, fair way to kill atheon. Now, the whole battle is based on luck. how can you have a whole boss battle with no strategy? The random teleport idea is bad

  • Paratrooper2000

    I did the raid last weekend for the first time. It took us 2 half days with lots of frustration (e.g. the maze). In the end, all I got (besides some ascendent parts) was a useless shader & an ugly cloak for my hunter. Fuck yeah, lets do the raid again… NOT!

  • Riki Wataru

    Knocking bosses off cliffs is a bug, granted. But random is random, specifically targeting the farthest three people is specific. If Bungie wants to change it’s mind, fine, but don’t call it a bug. It’s insincere and insulting.

    That said it’s a hard mode change. Learning Atheon is hard enough as is, and considering all the bugs in the base fight as it is it is insulting they want to tinker with strategies rather than fixing obvious and glaring problems like the portals frequently not working properly. Atheon is more monotonous and punishing than hard, and I especially think the one shot wipes of red oracles are a ridiculous mechanic, so this hardly does anything but make the fight more monotonous, tedious, and unimaginative trying to actively coordinate even more while dodging an entirely too busy playfield.

    I’m more aggravated by the Pocket Infinity nerf though. That’s the first thing to truly rock me out of what I think is a horribly designed game that nonetheless fun to play. You basically stripped the exotic right out of a weapon that was difficult to obtain and brought a smile to my face to play with in the situations where it was useful.

  • Clinton

    Labeling the Atheon Timestream a “bug” is questionable since, in terms of development, teleporting the back-most players is a distinctly different feature-spec than teleporting randomly. You would have to be using pretty vague code to mistake the two, programmatically. I’m not convinced the timestream behavior is really a bug.

  • chris

    that moment when you know other ways of one shotting the boss and bungie doesnt know that you know (: hard raid in less than 2 hours here i come

  • kaZHo͞oəltē

    I think the random teleport would be a good idea on hard mode. Don’t make normal too complicating where people will give up on it all together.

    Just recently I had a guy in my group trying to jump to the outer platforms, he didn’t even know that was a bug or that it was “patched”. It took awhile for players to establish how the raid mechanics work, and if you have uninformed people in game saying ‘this is how it works’ when it has been changed, it could cause a lot of arguments. Is this the kind of socialization Bungie is hoping for its players?

    I feel that the creative problem solving players are being restrained every time they shed light on the way they make their path to success within the game.

  • delta 6655

    you know… i think its to late for them to fix the errors to the vault, a lot of people have already milked it, and most of the bugs they are fixing im ok with, the vex mythocast needed to be nerfed in pvp, simply becouse pvp is suposed to be fair, but it cant be fair, because of abilitys, classes, and exotics, bungies urge to make everything evin is really, really misplaced. becouse unless they take everything from us, some things will be better then others. i agree with the atheon fix so he cant fall, but we are already used to the nonrandom teleport, and i like that becouse it makes atheon manageable, not easy, but it makes it so you can work with your team, as we have throughout the rest of the vault.

    the fix to the snipers ledge. evin with that ledge, its not easy. this is much more miner then my pervious complaint, as i can defest him with my clan with or without that platform. but it was nice haveing a tactical advantage, if your going to place a structure in the game, let us use it, then take it away, it makes you seem more controleing, your not letting us learn. and with the cruddy loot system, we kinda need an advantage to tap out the vault, if we dident get shards so often in the vault, i dont think we could really complain.

    as iv stated already, the loot. the loot is broken beyond what it we were told it would be. we were told. “the loot will always be rewarding” thats bs. when we do a nightfall, or a raid, we should always get something good throughout the experence, otherwise, once we get that first drop, whats the point? theres no “ok, so you put forth this much effort, heres an appropreate reward.” its “heres what i have in my pockit” maby have one drop have shards removed, so you walk out with atleast one physical item, and thus dont feel so bad. when me and my clan are playing a challengeing task, if i get something really nice, i become very generous with my time, and help my lower level clan members with hard tasks, evin if i wont get a reward at all. and no repeat loot please, unless you add a loot tradeing system so if we get somehting we already have, you can give it to so and so for ascendent shards.

    bungie, your not looking at it in a enjoyment perspective, you act like in order to do these things, you need to have a set up that you wont want to change, for example

    i love handcannons, i really do, but hen i reached level 20, you took away my hand cannon, i cant get a new one thats good enough for the tasks i have to do. we cant earn the things we really want, becouse its all random. heres an idea

    give xur a tickit, it will cost 50 coins, what does it entail, you can choose any weapon he can sell, or make your own, astectic and everything. let us trick out our guns and make them special. that way, in the lickly event we dont get loot, we can still smile knowing we have a gun all our own, and stop makeing the embloms so hard, i lead a clan, i need to be able to give my clan members a emblom to show off thats not really expensive. thats just a really miner complaint, just a bit of nit picking.

    bungie, you created a game thats truly unique. with great mechanics and fundementals, when you took that loot cave and added that easter egg, thats really awsome, and shows you wanna give fan service. but heres what this beutiful game needs, not badly, but i know ited make all of us smile.

    references- look at boarderlands, it has so much humer, its just hilarious, you and trayarc have both made my two faverite games, black ops 1 and 2. (zombies is so much fun, those eastereggs are the best things ever) and halo reach / 3. (343 took the red vs blue eastereggs to far, make it subtle, like in 3) hide a zombie map in there, you could hide tranzit in the cosmadrome so easily, just the bus station, with a loot chest that has a blood splater or something, and halo could have a character reference to 343 guilty spark. a quote from out ghost, maby when we reach the zombies reference. give us a reason to explore. something we can hunt for that will really make us laugh, or smile, or remember your other games, both with great lore created by you.

    i relize my oppinions are just that, and i know very few, if any will be seen by you, for the other members of this site, i say please reply to me and tell me what you think of these, bungie, stop changeing the game in areas where we are content, atheon falling, change it, sniper ledge, im iffiy on that, but also add somehting to make up for it. give us deeper lore, give us something to keep us anchored. this is an mmo, a huge game, or so it should be.

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  • Holy shit there are a lot of winey bitches. You guys all play this game for hundreds of hours right?

  • Andres Espinosa

    I think it’s outrageous take weeks with my team entering the RAID just to perfect what it was up to each and now they come to bother with it will be more random teleportation sucks because we will have to re- adjust to another dynamic game and more that not all team members can do all roles , not everyone has the same abilities or weapons to enter the portals and all is well BUNGIE stop spoiling the game

  • Christian Jimenez

    I think they should only do the random teleportation in hard mode. It’s a pretty sound idea

  • Christian Jimenez

    Finally attempted the raid with some random with the new update. Does not work with people new to the raid. I’m an experienced lvl 30 and I was trying to help out a group with a couple new raiders, but with the random teleportation it was impossible. I tried to be patient and we spent an entire hour on atheon before I could take no more. With my regular raid group we can finish the hard raid under 2 hours because they know what to do. New people have no idea and can’t learn from the experienced players if the new players are being forced to do the more difficult tasks. It’s detrimental to the new players because I am never going to play with new randoms ever again, or people on my friends list that I’m not 100% confident with.

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  • One of Nine

    This was a great change, it forced me out of my comfort zone and completed my knowledge of the VoG. I now know every role from relic holder to supplicant killer to portal opener to going into the portals..etc.. Nobody likes change especially when you’ve mastered something, I think it was a great move by Bungie. That said, I don’t believe it was a “fix” they were just pissed because people steam-rolled what they thought would be super hard and impossible to beat.